Wild & Sublime
Wild & Sublime
Are you Polywise? with author Jessica Fern
When relationships transition from monogamous to open, or ENM agreements change, trouble may arise. As part of our Polyamory In Depth season, author and therapist Jessica Fern (Polywise; Polysecure) discusses how to navigate choppy waters.
In this episode:
- Author and therapist Jessica Fern
- Sex educator, coach, and energy worker Karen Yates
- Polywise and Polysecure– buy them on Bookshop and support Wild & Sublime
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Prefer to read the convo? Full episode transcripts are available on our website.
INTRO
Jessica Fern
It's usually one partner that's really overwhelmed, and they're either overwhelmed with something completely unrelated to non monogamy. They're going through their own life events or family of origin, or whatever it is, or change in career or school, or there's a baby born, like I said, or they're really overwhelmed with the non monogamy, and they're dysregulated, they're having primal panic, and there's a lot of distress happening, and it's like, okay, there does need to be this container to hold this. So it's not about maybe not doing this at all, but what are the things that we can do so that your nervous system can just relax for a little bit. Get a break.
Karen Yates
Welcome to wild and sublime, a sexy spin on infotainment, no matter your preferences, orientation or relationship style, based on the popular live Chicago show, I chat about sex and relationships with citizens from the world of sex positivity and comedy, you'll hear meaningful conversations, dialogs that go deeper, and information that can help you become more free in your sexual expression. I'm sex educator Karen Yates. Our monthly patreon supporters pay for a large part of our operating expenses their contributions from $5 on up, help us big time plus members get discounts on show tickets and merch and receive wild and sublime news before anyone else and more interested in helping us spread the message of sex positivity, go to patreon.com forward slash wild and sublime.
Karen Yates
Hey Folks, today begins our seventh season, and I decided to do something a little different, at least for the foreseeable future, we will be doing shorter seasons, three or four episodes, most likely devoted to one theme. It's a way to look at a subject from different perspectives, and by creating a season around a topic that might yield new awarenesses. Since our polyamory episodes get a lot of downloads, and you can see that from our most downloaded episode from 2024, my interview with Molly Roden Winter about her polyamorous marriage, I thought that would be a great place to start. Thus, Polyamory in Depth, the subject matter of season seven. We won't be tackling the typical issues a lot of folks ask about in newer, consensually non monogamous relationships, but taking a look instead at areas that tend to be the more complex topics, the thornier issues in CNM partnerships. Today, I'll be interviewing Jessica Fern about her book, co written with David Cooley, called Polywise, a deeper dive into navigating open relationships, which deals with non monogamous relationships in transition, and that can be at the beginning or shifts that occur well into one's polyamorous life. Polywise lays out a roadmap for people to investigate their feelings and attitudes toward non monogamy and their partnerships. My conversation with Jessica includes how to identify couple privilege and codependency in a relationship, as well as how to temporarily tap the brakes in a partnership in the midst of change and more. Fern is a certified clinical trauma professional and an integrative practitioner working in somatic, narrative, psychotherapeutic and spiritual therapies. She is the internationally recognized author of poly secure attachment, trauma and non monogamy and the poly secure workbook, she has an international private practice and sees individuals, couples and multi partner relationships. Co author, David Cooley is a restorative justice facilitator. I am recording from the lands of the Council of three fires, the Ojibwe, the Odawa and the Potawatomi nations. What tribal lands Do you reside on, and what is the tribal history of these lands? Get curious and now the episode. Enjoy.
Karen Yates
Jessica Fern, welcome.
Jessica Fern
thank you, Karen, it's good to be here.
Karen Yates
it's so nice to have you here, and I'm really looking forward to talking about your book Polywise. So your last book was Polysecure. It was a kind of a big deal in the polyamory community, because it really talked about how our attachment styles, meaning how we relate to people, usually based on our family of origin dynamics, how that can really impact polyamory. And so this book is different. This book is called poly wise. Talk about the title,
Jessica Fern
yeah, it was kind of a play on Polysecure. So as the second book that came out using something similar, but also it became a phrase that often clients would use in sessions. So as they would maybe give me some updates, they would then use this phrase and then poly wise meaning, and you know, in terms of the poly things going on in my life,and it's also referencing how we can become more wise in how we do our polyamory, right that with time, with experience, usually with a lot of hard earned lessons, we do get more wise in how we relate and love multiple people.
Karen Yates
So, yeah, you know, as you know, this is part of our mini season on polyamory in depth. And I think your book encompasses that this isn't just like, hey, here's how to get over jealousy. You know, this is like, this is the deep work we need to do if we want to have successful relationships. And what I like is that pretty much everything you cover, not everything, but many of the things you cover and many of the questions you're posing to the reader, are also applicable to simply monogamous relationships that may never move into open relationships. They're the stuff of just relationship, yeah, the stuff of relating.
Jessica Fern
Well, exactly, yeah. But when we're in polyamory, the pressure is much higher. The heat is on. The heat is on, exactly the spotlights on. The heat is on. The pressure's on. And so we have to relate, well, much quicker and faster, and urgently, usually, than you know, we do in a monogamous context.
Karen Yates
That's absolutely right. And I'm going to jump to something you talk about, you say, of the greater degree of complexity inherent in CNM consensual non monogamy means you have to keep working on your emotional intelligence to do it well. So why do we need to keep working on our emotional intelligence? And can someone become more emotionally intelligent?
Jessica Fern
Yeah. Well, you don't have to, of course, but if we want to be relating ethically, to relate with respect and kindness and love, we need to keep looking at the ways that we're potentially falling short of that, or that we've been doing great. But relationships evolve, we evolve, and we can keep growing in our emotional intelligence, right, right? Yes, that's good to know, because I think sometimes when we think about our, like, our, you know, analytical intelligence, or what have you, it's like, oh, that's set that's a set line. We can't develop that, right? And the research on multiple intelligences shows that we have multiple intelligences, like a cognitive line of what we think of as the intellect, or we can have a musical intelligence or athletic kinesthetic intelligence, mathematic intelligence, emotional intelligence, relational intelligence.
Jessica Fern
Is, and it is a line of development that has different stages. It's not static. Well, I have to think of my own self, and yes, I have improved my emotional intelligence over my lifetime. So good. I guess I have to just look at myself, the work I've done. It's possible everyone does it.
Karen Yates
That's right. So I want to talk about...You get in depth about the construct of the couple, yeah, and how it's so ingrained in relational consciousness, it's hard to get beyond it in that it infiltrates a lot of non monogamous thinking even people who have identities beyond the mainstream, such as folks who are queer or non binary.
Karen Yates
And you know, you talk about it as a paradigm, and you give examples about how this idea of the couple infiltrates our thinking of relationships. And I think that is so critical, and I would love for you to expand on that.
Jessica Fern
Yeah, what do you want to expand on? I'm wondering what like sparked you specifically?
Karen Yates
Well, I think it's, for me, it's, it's about the fact that it's an in sometimes I see it as an invisible, yeah, belief in that, like you're in a marriage, say, and you're opening up your relationship. And therefore every other relationship, intimate relationship that you are in is becomes a secondary relationship, or there's a hierarchy, there's the secondary relationship, and maybe you just have a fling one day. Well, that's kind of seen as kind of out in like Plutoland, that's like the string out, and this all is, is sort of based on hierarchy, and that there is, like, there's a unit, and that unit has priority, legally, bloodline, you know, this is, like, early societally, yeah, and so how, I mean, this is a big question, but This will kind of serve as a way to, like, launch the conversation. How does this idea of the couple really impact unfavorably when? And you can also talk about favorably, but, but when we get into non monogamy? How does it Yeah. How does it impact the next relationships we're going to be getting into?
Jessica Fern
Right? Because if well, and there's the couple, and then there's hierarchy, and those are different and often overlapping, because there are people that can do less hierarchical or non hierarchical polyamory, and they can feel like they have, like, three different partners and three different couple. Ish kind of feeling relationships, right? But yeah, usually we're talking about there's the primary couple, and this sense of where the unit, we come first, we have priority, and a lot of it can be invisible to them, of where there are privileges, where there is primacy and it can impact the other relationships in like how much space and time there is for those people, how much say. Where it gets problematic is when those secondary or other people don't have much of a say of what they can do with this person that they're dating. There's restrictions from the primary couple on what the secondary or other relationships can do. That's where it becomes more challenging.
Jessica Fern
And some people, or the another one, is that the primary couple, you know, we're doing lots of air quotes here, right? They have they're challenged, and so everything else has to stop, right? Other relationships maybe have to pause or actually be ended, until the couple is okay. So there's a lot of yielding to the couple and their needs and preferences and desires, not necessarily centralizing other people's needs and preferences and desires.
Karen Yates
Yeah, you know, I actually want to go, you know, when, when, when we were talking, before I started recording, I was like, "we're gonna work chronologically through the book." [both laugh] No, nooooo.
Karen Yates
So in talking about this, I want to talk about this really intrinsic issue that you open up in the book, which is about codependency and differentiation and enmeshment within a couple, and it's typically what we would consider the originating couple, right? Not always,
Jessica Fern
but not always, not always at all.
Karen Yates
You recount, um, and I do want you to talk about codependency in a moment, but you recount your first relationship outside of your relationship with Dave, who, at the time, was your husband, Dave, the co author, with a man named Sam. You had a great deal of compatibility with Sam, you began realizing, though, that you both had a great deal of enmeshment with your original partners. And can you tell that story a little bit?
Jessica Fern
Yeah, yeah. We were-- Sam and I-- were in a similar place. We were each married, and, you know, new ish to opening up those marriages. I had already been previously non monogamous, but this was the first time Dave and I were actually opening up. And same thing, this was the first time Sam and his wife were opening up. And so there was that was really nice, because there was a willingness to hold everyone sort of with some understanding and tenderness and like, is everyone at a good enough pace?
Jessica Fern
And him and I were really a match in a lot of ways. I think we met each other in a lot of ways. It was really exciting. And yet, as time went on, I was like, Oh, is there... Well, is there enough space for me to have space from Dave to just feel like I can text Sam? like the simplicity of that, right? Like just without it feeling so awkward, like I don't want to have to go into the bathroom in my own house, to feel like I can just like I would text with a friend on the couch. And it's not time that's devoted to me and Dave, you know, so things like that, like, Is there space for me to take a phone call without it feeling like it's such a problem, right? But what I really started to feel that felt more problematic because I felt like Dave and I were could navigate that was that, yeah, Sam couldn't do a lot without really making sure his partner was, I don't want to say it this way actually, because I always wanted her to be okay, too. But it was becoming more like permission, instead of consideration right in this sort of and they were so enmeshed emotionally that he wasn't okay if she wasn't okay, even if it had nothing to do with polyamory, right? And so it created ways where it was like, we can't really have us. It's always them. Yeah,
Karen Yates
yes. And I thought what was, what was great is you had the very simple example in terms of enmeshment or differentiation, and we can talk a little bit more about those terms in a moment. But like having with Dave, you had a bunch of passcodes, passwords, that were shared. Like, oh, well, of course, we're here. We're a couple. We have shared passwords and passcodes and and like that. Like, there's this kind of the Venn diagram was getting like more and more like, oh, the circles were coming more and more together over each other in your life. And then you came, you went to talk. You went on to talk about differentiation and seeing each person as separate within a relationship, which, you know, it's funny, even that coming out of my mouth, that's like a duh, well, duh, but not really,
Jessica Fern
but not really, exactly, yeah, not the mono romantic narrative. It's all about, you know, where's your better half? Or I have to find my better half, or you complete me, right? So much of it is not about being two whole people.
Karen Yates
So talk about the advice you give to folks around differentiation, yeah, I think that's really some great advice in the book.
Jessica Fern
Yeah. Well, we talk about how it's a stage in the development of being in a relationship. And first there is this symbiosis. Which is about bonding, connecting, falling in love, feeling so similar, feeling so close, and connected. And that's really beautiful and needed, right? But then we do need to move into differentiation, which is like, okay, there's more of me here. There's more of you here, and we don't always love all those. Those aren't the best parts of us always, so there's the realness that shows up right now, that the hormones have waned and oh, maybe I don't like this about myself or you or us so much. And can we work through that? That's the key. And so that's a hard phase to start looking at difference. And so couples, partners, either, you know, they start to do it, and things get increased with conflict. And so they're like, let's just go back to symbiosis. But it's not symbiosis anymore. Now it's this codependency. It's like, I'll be part or incomplete of a person, and you be incomplete of a person, and we'll just not deal with this whole differentiation thing,
Karen Yates
yeah, yeah.
Jessica Fern
But when we go through it, then we do become more whole beings that are sharing deeper connection and intimacy and autonomy. So more becomes possible. So it's really even just that frame that differentiation is necessary for more intimacy, and it can be a very difficult phase, and if we don't have conflict resolution skills, if we have we don't know how to regulate our own nervous system. If we haven't explored our own inner critic and shame or our own traumas like working through conflict and relationship, it's going to take the relationship down.
Karen Yates
Yeah, yeah. You talk about one thing that folks can do is start having, you know, going out by themselves apart from the partner as like a, as a, I don't know if that's in the temporary vessel part we'll give you getting to that, but
Jessica Fern
Right. No, that's some, and some of it's from an article, one piece of advice that this one article gave, you know on how to create more differentiation, but yeah, even just exploring that, like, who am I, and how many of the things I do are my wants and preferences and desires versus for the other, for the relationship, right? And what are things that we can start doing with ourself or for ourself. Just that question to start with, yeah,
Karen Yates
and, and that reminds me of Esther Perel talking about this idea of mystery, yeah, of like, you know, keeping the mystery alive, even though you've been in a relationship for 20 years. Part of that is around differentiation.
Jessica Fern
Yeah, exactly, right, this idea that, like, oh, being close means we do everything together. Like, that's not a recipe for success, right? Versus be different. Have separateness and have closeness, yes?
Karen Yates
So we were talking, I was alluding just now to this idea of the temporary vessel, which you you know your book is really about these transitional moments in relationships, because the book isn't just about the transition between being monogamous to Being consensually non monogamous, but it's also the transitions that happen, even when you're already fully polyamorous and moving from, say, I don't know, a very set way of dealing with all your partners to a new dynamic, right?
Jessica Fern
Yeah, right. When people change their style of non monogamy. It's been one way for a long time, and then they realize I want to do a different style of monogamy. That's a big transition. It can be quite liberating and disruptive. Or when relationships end or, you know, escalate, de-escalate, or people move in, or babies are born, or people die, or all of these are big relationship transitions, even if you've been practicing for a long time, right, right?
Karen Yates
Yeah.
Jessica Fern
And so it's often in those moments we are kind of more vulnerable, or all these things start to get exposed, like, Oh, look at all this codependency. I didn't realize that was happening.
Karen Yates
We stub our toe on some major thing
Jessica Fern
Yeah,
Karen Yates
that we haven't seen in the relationship. So you talk about temporary vessels. A temporary vessel can be created both for couples considering open relationships, but for folks that are already consensually in an open relationship. What? What does that mean? And what does it look like?
Jessica Fern
Yeah, so it's a container, usually, of time, and what we're doing in this time, and what we're not doing in this time regarding the non monogamy, and it's usually coming from when we have. it's usually one partner that's really overwhelmed. And they're either overwhelmed with something completely unrelated to non monogamy, they're going through their own life events, or family of origin, or whatever it is, or changing career or school, or there's a baby born, like I said, or they're really overwhelmed with the non monogamy, and they're dysregulated, they're having primal panic, and there's a lot of distress happening, and it's like, okay, there does need to be this container to hold this. So it's not about maybe not doing this at all, but what are the things that we can do so that your nervous system can just relax for a little bit, get a break, not have so many threats day after day or week after week.
Jessica Fern
So one example of a vessel might be, can we just have the partners we're currently dating and not. Add any more for the next three months, that might be a vessel, right? Yes, "great! Let's keep the status quo for a minute," right, and not introduce any new people into our current dynamic, right? New processing doesn't have to happen newright? There might still be within the system, but maybe we're not going to add any new partners.
Jessica Fern
Another I was just talking to a couple this morning, and, like, usually when I think of vessels, I think of them in multiple months, right? We were, like, getting down to the week, like, how about just no dates this week? That's what, like, this nervous system has not caught up. It's like, hasn't digested what happened last month in regarding non monogamy. And I'm worried, if you keep piling on more dates, like, we can't catch up, you know?
Jessica Fern
And so it's like, just this week, each person's not going to have a date. They might still message with the people they're messaging with, or have phone calls, but we're not going to do like, a sleepover and date, you know, and that to that one person was like, that's really helpful. So it's not about just breaking up with people or dismissing them, but sometimes just saying, Yeah, my system needs this week...?
Jessica Fern
Yeah, I never got that small of a vessel, but that's what we're working and we're like, next week, we'll reassess. What's the vessel for this week, you know? And this is someone who's having really acute reactions right now, yeah,
Karen Yates
But in some regards, at this point, listening to your example, going week by week means there's going to be a check in. You know what I mean?
Jessica Fern
exactly. embedded in this is regular check ins, absolutely, yeah.
Karen Yates
And that seems getting back to the emotional intelligence you know, one of the you because your book has so many resources through the questions you're posing or the exercises you're posing, there is this idea I see of like emotional liveliness, like like people in reading the book are, if they want to embark upon what the book is proposing, it's like a certain amount of like enlivening of this emotional life, which might have just been very status quo up until this point.
Jessica Fern
Yes, yeah.
Karen Yates
And that's what I see so critical in polyamory, the necessity for that,
Jessica Fern
yeah, yes. There's really the need to stay up to date much more, because things are moving much quicker.
Karen Yates
Yeah, and relationships outside of maybe the originating couple are are moving... so many moving parts. By the way, is primal panic a term you use? Or is this, is this in the in the ether, primal panic? I love it.
Jessica Fern
Yeah, I found it in, like, I found it in the attachment literature. But it wasn't something I was encountering other than, like, deep into sort of textbook, attachment literature. And I was in reading that, oh, there's this primal panic thing that comes up. I was like, that's what's happening to my, you know, polyamorous partners that are having these big meltdowns, and they're just getting labeled as being too jealous or too insecure. And it's like, oh, there was an explanation in the attachment literature to what was happening.
Karen Yates
It's funny, because I call it existential crisis, but I like to, I like quite a lot. Yeah, you go on, you and David in the book, go on to talk about how polyamory tends to push to the front the issues that have always been there within a long term relationship. And one of the the types of relationships and I very much related to it was the companion marriage. Yeah. And can you describe this a little bit more?
Jessica Fern
Yeah, so with time, usually after children, but not always. Sometimes there isn't, you know, the marriage can turn into this very safe, comfortable, even sweet friendship. There's companionship, right? I enjoy being with you. I like spending time with you. We have the things that we do, the places that we go. We don't have a lot of sex. We don't have a lot of, you know, erotic polarity, but it's really sweet, and it becomes more of a companion than a romantic experience. Right? And so some people can call it a sexless marriage.
Jessica Fern
I feel... I don't love that term, because then it's sort of central, like there's so much to a marriage that can be wonderful. Sex is one component of it, right? A low sex marriage, non fulfilling sex marriage, right? So a lot of people can coast along here.
Karen Yates
Indefinitely.
Jessica Fern
indefinitely, right? If you don't bring it up, I won't bring it up. We have sex once a month or maybe once a year, like and they had create strategies around that for themselves, you know. But then someone wants to open up the marriage, right? And it's like, what? Like, you know, you're a sexual being, like, it can be quite a shock, and then it can feel like quite a rejection, if your partner really isn't been having much sex with you, but is excited to have sex with other people. Yeah? So some situations, the companion marriage is very mutual, and opening up is a great solution. We've got our thing. We've got our family. I don't want to change any of what we have. I just don't want to not have sex. So I'd like to have lovers as well, right? And that's like a mutual This is great. You know, it doesn't have to be one or the other, but when we have a situation where it's fallen into a companion marriage, and one person still does want sex with their partner and the other one's like, No, I just want what we have. I but I don't feel hot for you, but now I'm gonna go find other people to be hot about. That can be very painful, really unsustainable, I think unsustainable.
Karen Yates
Yeah, yeah. Is there any, is there any way that you see it has in your experience as a therapist, you ever, have you ever seen the boat like turn around?
Jessica Fern
Good question. I've seen, you know, sometimes I've seen the situation where the opening up revivifies the sexuality for the person that wasn't so into it that kind of felt like, oh, I don't really need it, or I could live without our sex. And then the opening up and seeing their spouse with other people, and other people finding their spouse attractive has brought that back online. So I have seen that that is possible.
Jessica Fern
And what I also see a lot though of is the person who's wanted the sex, but their spouse really hasn't wanted it back once they find someone themselves that really is into them sexually, and there's these other ways of connecting. They might they usually move on into that relationship as the primary.
Karen Yates
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Karen Yates
So then you talk about another type of major issue, which, in some ways, can go hand in hand with the companion marriage, which is relationship neglect, yes, and you say it's, it's one of the last straws in an original relationship that gets thrown into relief when folks start Opening up the relationship and what does that look like?
Jessica Fern
Yeah, neglect is tricky, because it can be invisible as well, and Dave and I both share several different stories in regards, as to how that was showing up in our relationship. There were certain things I had been asking for for years.And he's a great partner in many others ways. So I was like, we can't have everything. He's a great, amazing partner in these other ways.and the things they weren't getting were framed as because it just fundamentally wasn't who he was.
Karen Yates
Was this the plan? Like, are you alluding to
Jessica Fern
the planning...date planning
Karen Yates
a lot of folks struggle with this. I've noticed in long term relationships, there's one person who is the date planner
Jessica Fern
exactly, and sometimes that works, right? And sometimes the date planner is like, wait, I want to have a date planned for me. I want to receive this as well, because it's really an act of love. It's an act of service. It's, you know, it lets you know you're wanted and thought of and desired, and all these good things that feed into positive relationship experience, right?
Jessica Fern
Okay, that filled a love tank. So yeah, in this case, it was like, I would create experiences for Dave and I, and really just wanted him to do that. And he was like, it just seemed like he couldn't pull it together. It just wasn't in his wheelhouse. I would see how that would show up in other areas of life too, where he's not as good as an you know, planner.
Jessica Fern
So I kind of... just like, okay, that's just who he is. I'm not gonna get this, you know, I I'm gonna accept it. I love him. And then we open up and he's planning dates with other people. Like, unacceptable!!
Karen Yates
Well, talk about the Airbnb moment. Because I thought that was just I could just see it!.
Jessica Fern
So this is a great example of the enmeshment. Meets the neglect and explodes, right? So the enmeshment was that, like he uses all my accounts for things, right? We don't have, so he's planning a date for himself and another woman I'm all on board, really excited for them to have this date, and they, you know, he they have to get an Airbnb, basically, and so he's logging into my Airbnb account. He could have got his own in that moment. He could have just pulled out his right his own credit card, you own email. But he know he's logging into mine, and then, because he's using his computer, it doesn't recognize him, and so it sends him, like, you know, a security code that my phone gets. I'm elsewhere. All I see is the security code, you know, you're trying to log into Airbnb. Here's the six digit code. And I was like, He's gonna freaking. I'm like, 5...4...3...2...There's a text! "Did you get a code?"
Jessica Fern
I was like, No way. I am not helping facilitate you plan a date for someone else right now. Like you can get your own Airbnb account. You do not need to use mine.
Karen Yates
Did things turn around after that point?
Jessica Fern
That's a great question.for him, and I, well, I think he tried, but fundamentally he was like, I think he's still, we joke about it still, you know, and for those that don't know our story, like we're no longer married, but we still live together. We're still nesting partners, creative partners, you know, primary partners in many ways, without a sexual, romantic relationship. Yeah, so we still joke about it. You know how that's just not, it's not his strength, yeah, it's not his strength. So even with his current partner, that it's just like, yeah, it doesn't really happen. And she has a better time with it than I did.
Karen Yates
It's really, it's interesting, because in the book, you know, because Dave interjects every chapter to talk about his, you know, his take on things, yeah, and he, he was chagrined by the story that you relate in the book. And then he goes on to say something very important. He says, quote, "intimacy and romance are not an investment portfolio you can outsource to someone else. It's a living, breathing, complex organism that is always in flux and in need of constant tending." Yeah, yeah.
Jessica Fern
That's it, yeah. And I think he, he has really learned to do it better, but it's still not his like go-to.
Karen Yates
Yeah. One thing I really appreciated in that, in that chapter, is you go on to talk about how relationship neglect doesn't just happen with a like originating long term partner. It can happen with solo, poly folks that are involved in long you know, when dating long term. You know people who are in long term partnerships, and how, if you are in another style, like solo poly, or you're a satellite partner, where you're you know, see each other occasionally, or you're doing relationship anarchy, which is another type of style we'll be covering later in the season--
Jessica Fern
So good.
Karen Yates
yeah, it's so good...Will be, you know, that that that can happen. And I personally related to that, as a solo, solo poly, that I had seen that.
Jessica Fern
Ah.
Karen Yates
But I also want to talk the flip side is that I was placing myself in those situations. You know, I was placing myself in partnerships or in relationships where I was minimized, yeah, and then part of my work was to center myself, which has taken some time. That work has taken time, you know,
Jessica Fern
Absolutely.
Karen Yates
Do you want to say anythingabout that?
Jessica Fern
Yeah. Well, I think a lot of times there's a correlation between being solo poly and being very self reliant, right? And there's a lot of strength in that. There's a lot of high functioning and capacity in that. And so when we have someone who's usually has their shit together, is more self reliant. The people around them mistakenly think you're okay, you're good, you got your shit together, you're fine. You don't have a lot of needs, right? Or how nice that you know you're solo poly, because it means that you won't ask as much from me, right? Or you haven't asked as much from me. That's what's been set set up. And so then when someone tries to change that, it can be jarring to the relationship. Yeah, but I think what you're also getting at, I called it secondary syndrome this week.
Karen Yates
That's that's great!
Jessica Fern
A secondary where someone is suffering from the experiences of being secondary again and again and not being, you know, prioritized in certain ways, not even that. It's about being primary, but you know, right, of being considered, of not being neglected, of being more front and center in certain moments. Yeah.
Karen Yates
Yeah. you do include so many, as I've said a few times now, you include so many ways for a person or a couple to engage with the book. And it's, it's very challenging. You know, reading through the questions, they're challenging questions. Obviously, if a person was to have you as a therapist, they would be engaged in this sort of reflection. You know, how many, how often do you see couples who come to you actually, really digging in and doing this kind of work?
Jessica Fern
I think they're all doing this kind of work to some degree, right? Bits and pieces, not, of course, all of it all at once, but they're all I mean, the couples I work with, they're needing support, but there's usually a real desire to be working through this and to figure it out, and to want to be on the other side of it, for sure. Yeah. And sometimes it's confusing to know where you need to do the work, like, what exactly is the work we have to do, right? Or what parts are getting personal parts are getting in the way of this process. Yeah.
Karen Yates
It wasn't until I was more in to the journey of polyamory that I realized, oh my gosh, I can. There are so many different styles and types, and I can create, you know,
Jessica Fern
create your own adventure.
Karen Yates
Create your own adventure. How often do you see folks that you work with starting out with one style or type of relationship, say the primary, secondary model, hierarchical. And then, as they're working with you, with each other, this their the style breaks open something else,
Jessica Fern
always, absolutely, always. And what? Well, that the people that don't change style, they don't have a lot of challenge, right? They're not in a transition, so they're not seeking support,
Jessica Fern
yeah, and of course, I have a biased population, right? Of people seeking support.
Karen Yates
Of course, yes,
Jessica Fern
all of them. All of them right? Of of oh, we thought we were doing it this one way, or I thought I wanted to do it one, this one way, and I want it to look different, and that's creating a lot of ripples. You know, the classic one to warn about is you can't put rules on feelings. So the whole we're not going to fall in love, or you can't fall in love, that usually backfires,
Karen Yates
yeah, and this idea too, which a lot of folks talk about, is that you cannot not be jealous. This is part of it, like this is it's really learning what is to be jealous. It's okay to be jealous. It's learning. It's learning how to cope with it and investigate it. And
Jessica Fern
that's life, yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of people now have this polyamorous ideal that they're holding themselves up against, yeah, and I'm finding myself more now having to help deconstruct that, right? Like it's this isn't about being poly enough, right? It's okay that you need to ask for this week for a pause, right? It's okay if you have this need. It's okay if you're feeling this way, right, like where now there's this polyamorous ideal that's really getting in the way for people.
Karen Yates
This comes back to our earlier conversation about centering yourself. In the relationship of like, I mean, part of what you're talking about is not only this Shangri la vision of polyamory, where we love everybody, but it's about, well, I have feelings and I'm I'm, I need to express them.
Jessica Fern
Yeah, right, exactly
Karen Yates
the last chapter of your book I just loved so much. It was self transformation. And there were so many gems. But really, you were talking about how to become, you know, self talk about what was the name of the psychologist that talks about
Jessica Fern
Robert Keegan,
Karen Yates
and the final state, about, like, kind of the stages of actualization, and the last one is self authoring. So you're creating your life, yeah, not necessarily based on the rule structure of the society you're within,
Jessica Fern
yeah, the last one is self transforming,
Karen Yates
okay, yes. Okay, yeah. So you write "for people in the stage of self, of the self, transforming mind, the need for structures, labels and identities hold less sway here. The constructs of monogamy and non monogamy may have little importance in and of themselves and merely serve as a symbolic points of reference. Choice is the hallmark of this stage, and people in this stage, can demonstrate a tremendous amount of relational responsiveness and flexibility from the self transforming mind. We can recognize all relationship structures as a relative and so appreciate their strengths and we can weaknesses. We can appreciate the benefits of monogamy as well as as well as acknowledge its limitations. And we can enjoy the many advantages of non monogamy without assuming we will be in non monogamous relationships for the rest of our lives."
Jessica Fern
Yeah,
Karen Yates
oh, wow. I loved that so much because I've grappled I've grappled with open relationships, I've grappled with monogamy. And it was really lovely to just read the statement. And yeah, what would you have to say about this chapter? I mean, it's, it ended on such a like, oh, visionary.
Jessica Fern
I'm so glad. Yeah, this was such a, such an incredible surprise, working with people, you know, because I interface with, you know, people are usually coming in with their distress and their attachment anxiety and ruptures, or a lot of drama, you know, that were like needing help cleaning up, and then along the way, I'm hearing people talk about how all of this level of Awakening, all of this level of accepting and finding themselves and aspects of themselves that weren't available before coming online, right? Or exiled parts of them coming back. I mean, it was just, it was about awakening and liberation through non monogamy. And that's it's, I get the chills even, you know, saying it right? Yeah, so people evolving through their relationship structure, right? That being the transition into non Monogamy was really an evolutionary impulse, and it was moving them into more emotional intelligence and sexual intelligence and more authenticity,
Karen Yates
yeah, for sure, I think for me, it cracked.. It cracks something open, which was, yeah, there's an ease. I have an ease now, and I think thinking about it earlier, of like, when we come up against the edges of relationships. And by that, by that, I mean the boundaries and the constructs that society has placed on it. It's almost like an electrified barbed wire fence, and so as you see it approach, you're like, No, I can't even, I can't even walk up to this edge. And you're, you constrain yourself, at least I did, and now it's not like that anymore,
Jessica Fern
right
Karen Yates
There's, there's, you see, a there's no, there's boundaries that are agreed upon in relationships, but, or, you know, agreements, I would say less than boundaries, but there's agreements, and because of that and a different way of being, there's more exploration that can happen. Yeah,it's astonishing.
Jessica Fern
Yeah, it's astonishing, and it can be other things too, but, you know, other avenues to feeling the self gets cracked open. But yeah, this is definitely a path of that where, where even polyamory can be a spiritual path for people, definitely, yeah, definitely yeah. So it deserved its own chapter. And yeah, and with that too. We talk about Dave had. The flip side of that awakening is also the dark night of the soul. Is that it first before he had his breakthrough, he had to really go through a very painful deconstruction process of looking at all the parts of him that he wasn't thrilled to look at.
Karen Yates
Yeah, yeah. That was, that was a very interesting part of the of the chapter, yeah, as he describes his relationship with you and having to look to these constructs of masculinity,
Jessica Fern
yeah,
Karen Yates
it was really a beautiful explication of his journey. And you're very quick to say, you know, I mean, you put forth the vision, but you're pretty quick to say that, hey, this is really destabilizing, you know, that that's, that's, that's part of this. You have to kind of deconstruct and and and destroy these things that may have been very comforting and comfortable for you,
Jessica Fern
right? Right? Exactly. Andpeople know that if they've deconstructed gender or the sexual binary, the sexual orientation binary, like all these different ways that you know we've had to deconstruct, well, we haven't had to, but we can choose to deconstruct race, gender, sex, yeah,
Karen Yates
Yeah. Jessica Fern, thank you so much for this interview. I really appreciate it. I am I advocate for this book. It is poly wise by Jessica Fern and Dave Cooley, thank you. Thank you, Karen, you can buy polywise and polysecure on bookshop.org which helps independent booksellers and wild and sublime. For more information on how to get these books and on Jessica Fern, go to our show notes. Well, that's it. Folks. Have a very pleasurable week.
Karen Yates
Thank you for listening. Wild and sublime is supported in part by our sublime supporter, full color life therapy, therapy for all of you at full color lifetherapy.com know someone who'd like this episode, send it to them, and we'd love a review or a rating on your podcast app, you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Wild and sublime. Got feedback or an inquiry? Contact us at info at Wild and sublime.com I'd like to thank our design guru Jean Fran soy Gervais and editor Christine Ferrara. Our music is by David Ben Porat. This episode is part of the Lincoln lodge Podcast Network.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
