"Hands On"—sexuality work and healing

Remi Newman, editor of Hands On, a book collection of personal essays by sexuality workers, and Mehdi, a somatic sex and trauma therapist, talk with Karen about the complexities of sex work and the potential for deep healing through hands-on modalities.

In this episode:

Hands On: Stories of Sexuality Work, Intimacy and Healing  

Remi Newman - editor, Hands On; surrogate partner; and sexuality educator

Mehdi - somatic sex and trauma therapist

Karen Yates - dual-certified somatic sex educator and sexological bodyworker, and energy worker

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Genital De-armoring with Rahi Chun

Men, Trauma, and Sex with JoJo Bear 

Sexual Trauma, Somatic Healing 

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Prefer to read the convo? Full episode transcripts are available on our website.

Transcript

Wild & Sublime Season 8 Episode 2

"Hands On"

Remi Newman  0:03  
We're building that trust. We're creating that space where, yes, being witnessed, they're not being judged, they can just explore. And sometimes it's amazing how people with so little experience, there's an eroticism that's in there. It's been waiting in there for just the right moment and space and a witness so it can come out.

Karen Yates  0:27  
Welcome to Wild & Sublime, a sexy spin on infotainment, no matter your preferences, orientation or relationship style, based on the popular live Chicago show, I chat about sex and relationships with citizens from the world of sex positivity and comedy, you'll hear meaningful conversations, dialogs that go deeper, and information that can help you become more free in your sexual expression. I'm sex educator Karen Yates. Our monthly Patreon supporters pay for a large part of our operating expenses. Their contributions from $5 on up, help us big time. Plus members get discounts on show tickets and merch and receive Wild & Sublime news before anyone else and more interested in helping us spread the message of sex positivity, go to patreon.com/wildandsublime.

Karen Yates  1:27  
Hey, folks, we had an epic show a few nights ago here in Chicago at Lincoln Lodge, a night of sex positive storytelling and stand up with me fielding some audience questions about sex and relationships at the end, with a little comedic backup, so good to laugh during these trying times. And I hope you can join us for the next one. I will be announcing dates soon, and parts of this show will be on the podcast later this summer. Check out Instagram and Facebook @Wildandsublime to see some reels in the next couple of weeks today as part of our season on healing sexual trauma with more of a somatic focus, I'll be talking to Remi Newman, the editor of Hands On: stories of sexuality, work, intimacy and healing that came out several months ago, Hands On is a collection of personal narratives of surrogate partners, kink and BDSM professionals, escorts and intimacy coaches to show how all forms of sexuality work have the potential to provide powerful healing. Remi Newman is a sexuality educator, writer and surrogate partner joining the conversation is Mehdi, a somatic sex and trauma therapist in Canada who authored one of the essays in the book. He also contributed to the anthology healers on the edge, published several years ago. Our conversation today covers what it's like to work with clients in process readings from the book and the issues of legality with sex work in general. And just to let you know, in the first few minutes of the interview, the Internet audio is a little broken up, but resolves pretty quickly. Enjoy

Karen Yates  3:16  
Remi and Mehdi. Welcome.

Remi Newman  3:18  
Thank you, Karen, for inviting us. 

Mehdi  3:20  
Thank you. Thank you for having us. 

Karen Yates  3:21  
I'm very excited about this interview tonight. What native lands are both of you on. Mehdi? Why don't we start with you.

Mehdi  3:30  
Sure. I'm in Nanaimo, originally known as Nene mo on Vancouver Island, and I acknowledge being on this land as a late Come settler, and I hope to give back to the community, to the indigenous people by through the work that I do.

Karen Yates  3:51  
Thank you and Remi?

Remi Newman  3:52  
Thank you. And I'm in Sonoma County, California, northern California, on the ancestral lands of the Pomo WaPo and Miwok peoples, and I would just like to give a quick mention to red bud resource group, just as Mehdi was saying, if people are interested in learning more or giving back to the indigenous community that is currently living on these lands, Redbud Resource Group.org, is a wonderful organization in my community,

Karen Yates  4:21  
Wonderful. And I am on the lands of the Council of three fires, the Ojibwe, the Odawa and the Potawatomi nations, colonially known as Chicago. Remi. This is a fantastic book, Hands On, a collection of essays and what it-- yes, they're a beautiful book, and we will link to bookshop.org, for folks that are interested in reading it. What are the origins of the project? When, like, when did it start coming into your head that this is something you wanted to do? 

Remi Newman  4:56  
Sure. So I was actually working on an academic textbook with a professor, human sexuality professor in Marin in Northern California, and we were creating this wonderful textbook for her students. And I offered to do a chapter on sex work, and I wanted there to be multiple voices in the chapter, so I reached out to two people that I knew one who is a head trained as a surrogate, was also a gay male sex worker, also a pro Dom, that I have known for many years. And I just asked them to if they'd be interested in writing an excerpt for this textbook. And I said, Write whatever you want. What do you think young people or people going to college should know about your work, about the field of sex work, and both of them wrote these incredibly poignant, beautiful vignettes just so full of compassion. And I was so touched, and I thought, I know there are more stories like this out there. So from those two little vignettes was born the idea. I thought, what a beautiful idea for an anthology, because most people when they think of sex work, compassion may not be the first thing that comes to their mind, but I knew that this can be a huge part of it for people and for the clients seeking out the different modalities of work. So I was at the a sec conference after that, a sect is the American Association for sexuality educators, counselors and therapists. And this was during COVID. It was online. And there was, I saw there were, was a publisher there, Jessica Kingsley. And I thought, it's a long shot, but they're here at a sexuality conference. I have this idea. I wrote to them and reached out and said, What do you think about an anthology about compassion and sex work, and they wrote back and said they absolutely loved the idea and that they actually wanted to do more books, particularly on sex work. So it was just a great timing, and that's when we came up with a plan. And then I started the search for contributors, and was so happy I reached, I already knew many so happy when I reached out to many that he agreed right away to be part of the book.

Karen Yates  7:05  
One thing I was really struck by is that the contributors that you, you got there, you have a whole complete spectrum of types of sex workers, ranging from what people see as more conventional, like full service workers, or people who do cam work, who give pleasure, who give pain, but then also folks such as Mehdi, who are working therapeutically and in some instances, even shamanistically. And so one theme that I noticed as I read the book that becomes quite evident it's that this is an incredibly complex arena sexuality and the roles and what sex workers are doing. It can move around very quickly. They may start out as a the typical assignment, and then it will move into almost like putting on the therapy hat. And so I would love both of your thoughts on this, like complexity and Mehdi, why don't we go with you?

Mehdi  8:09  
Sure. Thank you. I've always thought of sex and sexuality in a very core arena of humanity. It's a very important part of our lives and our being, and that's why it has been throughout history, has been the subject of control by organized religion and by governments and so on so forth. Because by regulating sex, you regulate the bodies, you control the bodies. You control everything. And there's and there's so much potential in a body that is free to express, to explore and express its sexuality, which is our life force. It's I look at it not just in the area of sex and intercourse, and that's that sort of thing, but also it's in in sense of life force, creativity, everything that we need to engage in life as fully as possible. So there's so much to do with us. There's so many gems in there we can explore in so many different ways.

Karen Yates  9:15  
Yes, and we can't like we see in many of the stories these extraordinary shifts in the clients as they're allowed just to be and to be witnessed. And I think this would be a great moment to actually have you. Mehdi, read an excerpt from your piece about your client, Sophia. She came to you because she had been raped when she was a teenager. I think, yes. And what in before you read the excerpt, what else do you want to tell us about the client in this situation? Before you read.

Mehdi  9:55  
She was, she was a middle aged woman, professional, well aged. Communicated, read and she heard about my work. She was familiar with the work through some studies, and so she wanted to experience it, and that's how we got to gradually focus on her trauma. Let me read a bit of that story. [Reading] "In this session, she wanted to address the pain and the shame. She began as before, by asking for various touches on different parts of her body. While she spoke her thoughts and feelings about the young man who had led the group assault, I also inquired about her sensations by staying attentive to both her body and her mental process. She felt different levels of release. She wanted me to put my hand around her throat as if to choke her. That was something that she typically enjoyed during sex, but in this instance, she wanted to feel the trust between us to know I was not going to hurt her. Her intentional choice to slowly go to the edge of a danger zone allowed her to feel her sense of agency in choosing what she wanted and how she wanted to experience it, this was a deep insight to know that she could trust someone not to push it too far and intentionally hurt her, and to listen to her when she says that's enough. And even a more profound knowing she could trust her own choice. The challenge now was to find the edges of her boundary so that she would not have to wait until it was too late. She wanted to be able to recognize the signs along the way, to know before it got to be too much. As a teenager, she was made helpless then overpowered and violated, she had lost her ability to see the signs for what they were, and the agency to direct her experience at 16, the challenge now was to find the edges of her boundary so that she would not wait have to wait until it was too late. She wanted to be able to recognize the signs along the way, to know before it got to be too much as a teenager, she was made helpless then overpowered and violated. She had lost her ability to see the signs for what they were and the agency to direct her experience. At 16, at my suggestion, she agreed to invite the presence of her teen self into the session so she could observe and learn from her mature and wise adult self. She sat up again on the edge of the massage table and asked me to stand behind her and caress her breasts in a very specific way. 'This is incredible that I can give this much direction,' she said, laughing."

Karen Yates  12:33  
That's very powerful. And I wanted to ask you a bit about the work that you were doing with her. We talked on the show about being a somatic sex educator. I've been trained in the modality. But can you explain this idea of like choice and voice as a somatic sex educator, and the experience you're having with the client and the experience the client is having with you?

Mehdi  12:59  
So in the work that I do, the clients experience, internal experience, has priority. And they're they're acting in a way, you can say, as an interpreter between their inner life, of their body, their somatic life, and myself. So they report on what is going on at the moment, what sensations are, what feelings there are, what experiences come up, what images or metaphors or body feelings come up, and then what is, what kind of action would meet the desire that is in those sensations. It's just, if they have an itch on their back, sensation of itching on the back, they want it to be scratched. It's a very sort of a straightforward kind of thing, but sometimes it's not that clear. Sometimes it needs a touch, sometimes it needs a word to be spoken, or you're beautiful, or you're enough, or you're perfect as you are, or sometimes they need to be to find their power in pushing away and defying what something that I do or something that I say, because the trauma that they experienced was a trauma of violation of commission. So it needs to be undone. And so what happens in the work through touch, they reach a certain level of arousal in their nervous system that is similar to the time when the trauma took place. So any action in that moment would actually reach that place in their psyche to repair and to fill that gap that was left open.

Karen Yates  14:48  
And the client you're never working ahead of the client. You're tracking with the client, and you're creating a space where a container where the client can comfortably heal.

Mehdi  15:01  
Absolutely So, and that's a beautiful way of putting it. It's that my belief is that, and it's not only mine. It that everyone has the urge to become whole, to heal themselves, and once they're given the space and the opportunity to connect with their with that expanded knowledge in their psyche, they move towards it. And everyone is different. Someone wants to hear something or be touched in a certain way, so everybody wants needs to have a their own way of reaching that wholeness.

Karen Yates  15:35  
That's beautiful. Remi, you are-- You wrote several of the pieces on this book, and you are a surrogate partner. I'm actually planning on having a surrogate partner episode later this season. But you, as well, are tracking the client, being with the client, witnessing the client, and it's you can you can explain what surrogate partnership is, yeah, for the folks who maybe have missed the surrogate partner episodes,

Remi Newman  16:05  
Sure, absolutely, surrogate partner therapy is a modality that started in the 1970s and it was based on the work of Masters and Johnson sex researchers. They were working in a university, in a research lab, working with couples on sexual, I guess, dysfunction, you could say, I don't like using that term a lot, but because we're not really dysfunctional. But anyway, and they realized that there were people who needed help who didn't have partners, so they enlisted a surrogate to come and these were, would be men, for the most part, who were the clients or the I guess they'd be like subjects for research, really, and they would have female surrogates come in to work with them, and it was most likely about issues that were pretty functional, things like the erection is not staying, or premature ejaculation, things like that. So the idea for surrogate partner therapy was born out of that, but we do not work in a university and a lab. We are work on our own with clients, but we also work with a licensed clinical therapist. So there's we work, it's, we call it the triadic model. So there's always a client, a surrogate partner, and the therapist as well. So the client is, you know, every time after we have a visit with the surrogate, they would see their the therapist to have a space to process what's going on, and then the surrogate and the therapist are also in contact with each other in between as needed to check in. So we're all working for towards the goals of the client. And many people who seek out the work, sometimes it has comes from a history of trauma. A lot of my clients have had a lot of childhood trauma, not necessarily sexual nature, but abuse, neglect, or some combination of those two that has then had a powerful effect on their ability to create relationships, to have physical and emotional intimacy. Many of my clients have never been sexual or had wanted sexual touch in their lives by the time they find this modality, and they feel like this is it. It's now or never. I want to be able to have this in my life, and things have been getting in the way, and all the talk therapy in the world, sometimes, as amazing as it can be, is not the thing they needed to have an actual experience with another human being to see, how will my body react? How do we do this thing? How do we connect and have physical and emotional intimacy? So it's amazing, powerful work that we do. 

Karen Yates  18:32  
Yes, and you have a great story, and I'm hoping you can read an excerpt, and can you set it up a little bit?

Remi Newman  18:40  
Yes, absolutely. So this was actually my very first client, which is interesting, and a woman. Most of my clients, or all my clients since then, have been cisgender males, but this was a lesbian woman who came out late in life, in her 60s, and was finally felt like she was ready to explore her sexuality, but had never had any wanted sexual touch. Had never been had any kind of sexual contact or central contact with a woman. I'm so glad she found out about the work, and this was us at the beginning. This story is called "Holding Hands," and we use a technique called sensate focus in surrogate partner therapy, which is just very basically touching for your own pleasure, and we start very with just literally touching hands is how we begin. So that was a challenge for her at the beginning, and she had this idea to bring a scarf that we if we put a thin scarf in between our hands, that thin barrier would be, it was enough to help her get over that, that that hump. So that's where we're starting. 

Remi Newman  19:50  
[Reading] "So Ruth starts to curl her fingers around the scarf around my hand. Her breathing gets louder and deeper. I smile and start to curl my finger fingers as well. "We are holding hands," I say. "We are holding hands. I am holding hands. I am--" Ruth's eyes well up as her words trail off. I smile at Ruth,hoping she can feel all of the love and compassion I'm pouring into her. "Are you okay? Is it okay?' I ask. Ruth's facial expression becomes serious. She bent my fingers back. "She hurt me." "Who did, I ask quietly, feeling the heaviness of what she's sharing. "My mother. I had to go to the hospital. No one talked about it." Our eyes meet. "I'm so sorry you went through that. I can't imagine. Why would she do that to a child, her child, she knows she is asking a question without an answer. You didn't deserve that. No one does," I say, hoping my eyes are conveying the depth of compassion I feel for her. "I know, I know that now," Ruth says. Suddenly, she looks determined. "You are brave," I say. "I don't know if I'm brave, but I'm tired of being alone. No more scarf," Ruth says emphatically. She grabs the scarf and tosses it away. She takes my hand in her own. "Now we are holding hands," she says. "I want this." I smile big at her, "wow, we are really holding hands. I do think you're brave. This isn't easy." "You're right. It's not easy. Thank you. Thank you for being here when I needed you. I don't know how else I would have I mean, how can you have a relationship with someone, if you can't even hold hands?" I nod my head. "And sex-- I can't even imagine. " Ruth takes a deep breath and smiles. I smile back at her. "That's why you're here, so you don't have to just imagine. It can be a reality, one step at a time, no rush, a slow journey." "I'm ready. I want a relationship. I want sex. I can say that." Now Ruth looks energized. I hold her gaze. "Thank you for trusting me. We will get there," I say, hoping to instill confidence. Ruth nods her head. "What now?" she says, looking down at our hands. "We could explore each other's hands using sensate, focus touch for your own pleasure. Touch my hand in a way that feels good to you." Ruth begins to run her hand over my hand, moving slowly, exploring the spaces between my fingers, her palm. "Your hand is soft." She smiles at me. "Thank you. Yours too. May I explore?" Ruth hesitates for a moment. "Yes, you may." She gives permission. I close my eyes and begin to explore Ruth's hand with my own using the back of my hand. I move it slowly inside her palm. I then move my fingers in between her fingers. Ruth closes her eyes and lets out a sigh. Her body is relaxing. She's enjoying the touch. "This is good. I like this," she says, little surprised at herself. "I do too," I say and I mean it." And I'll just leave it there.

Karen Yates  23:18  
Wow, what a touching story. It's such a touching story. And I just --What struck me as I read through all of the pieces in this book, is the power when two people come together in a I'll call it a sexual space, even though that's not always, well, it is. It is always a sexual space that is talked about in the in the book, but this the power of being witnessed and how much change can happen in that space for people that, to me, is always just extraordinary, and it's not the same kind of change that can happen when you're merely talking to someone in an office across a coffee table or what have you. And I'm not denigrating talk therapy, because it's done me a lot of good. But there is, you know, you were talking Mehdi earlier about the the this raw, almost chaotic nature of the Eros of sexuality and life force, and that's also how healing comes about. Yeah, I don't... I'm just... I suppose I want to ask both of you, you know what, since you've both been in your professions for some time. What are some of your reflections, and are there people that stick in your mind as really powerful examples of this kind of healing?

Mehdi  24:54  
Do you mean clients that have worked with? I find it always it's..it is not.... It's not as if, like, huge fireworks happen in sessions and big actions and so on. It's-- most of the time it's so simple. It's so simple. When they really get to that point of, okay, this is what I need, that thing that they need? It is so straightforward and so simple, so available that it boggles the mind. I have. I had this client who was 65 years old, and she had felt rejected by her mother throughout from birth on, she mother didn't want her, didn't want to have her, and throughout her life with partners, children, so on, so forth, she always felt on the outside not quite belonging, and she had been traumatized, violated in her childhood and later on, which she had vague memories of but she was not clear as to who and what, but she had a sense that's why she came to me, and when we finally got to the point of that she was ready to ask to be touched, she lied down on the table, face down, and said, "touch my back."

Mehdi  26:18  
Just one spot on her back, between her shoulder blades, and just touch that as I move your hand up and down, and I kept checking with her as to like, exactly the spot, exactly the length, the range of the touch, the pressure of the touch, the speed of the touch as well. Made sure that was it was exactly what she wanted. She kept going and going to be, I can say, in that session, I touched, I just moved my hand up and down, up and down on her shoulder blade between shoulder blade for about 45 minutes, until by the end, she was convinced that it is possible to ask for what she wants and To get exactly what she wants, that is not it is not out of reach. It is not impossible. It was a huge shift in her belief system, in her expectation of what is available out there in the world. Well, that's what I mean. It is when it's when the space is and I love your Word of the witness, that this unconditional witness is invaluable when we have when we enter that space of moving towards our own healing, and to be witnessed in that and to be responded in a way that it doesn't want anything from us. It's just there to afford us what we really need. I have many, many examples like that, but he says none of them is like I said, it's not going to be earth shattering, except that it was.

Karen Yates  27:54  
And you know one thing I think it's, I don't know who in the book, maybe it was in your story, Mehdi, like that. Like sometimes doesn't matter if you're a full service sex worker or more of a therapeutic worker does take time. Sometimes you have to see a client several times, maybe more than several times, before the trust is developed. Or sometimes it's simply developed immediately, because you're paying for-- you're paying someone to bear witness. But Remi, what are some? What do you have a story that sticks out in your mind? Or reflection? A reflection? 

Remi Newman  28:29  
Yeah, yeah. I have so many. Yeah, the some of the amazing things that really can be incredibly life changing for people to do this kind of work. Sometimes we do intensives where people come for seven days, 10 days, 14 days, if they're especially if they're traveling and they're seeing a surrogate partner for three hours a day and a therapist for one hour. So that's a long that's a four hour day for, you know, perhaps 10 days in a row. And it really is intense. We call it an intensive because the timing, but it can be a lot, but in some of these, I can see incredible amounts of growth. Not that it can happen if someone's coming once a week for a while, but it's a lot easier to go back to your life and old patterns and things, and the growth can just take longer, I think. And sometimes these intensives, it's incredible to see such a change in people from when they first come in, and they're almost always nervous. There's bound to be some anxiety around this. What are we doing? How is this going to go? But clearly they've made a commitment to do this and to be here, and it feels like many people think about it for years before they actually say, Okay, I'm ready. I'm going to do it. 

Remi Newman  29:42  
And so it is amazing how the difference you can get to in even a few days, because we're building that trust. We're creating that space where, yes, the being witnessed, they're not being judged, they can just explore. And sometimes it's amazing how someone who. Had very little experience at all. A lot of times they're concerned I'm not going to be a good enough lover, because all these other people have had decades and years of experience, I say she don't realize is most of those people turn the lights off, jump under the sheets with someone, and they're bumbling and they don't they're not necessarily great lovers. There's a lot of people out there having a lot of sex, that's probably mediocre to bad, right? And I say, you're going to come out of this with more skills and openness. We're not turning the lights off. We're going to talk about everything, we're going to process. We're going to we're going to be in the moment and be open and so and it's amazing how sometimes in these people with so little experience, there's an eroticism that's in there. It's been waiting in there for just the right, the moment and space and the witness so it can come out. So it's like, Mehdi was saying, it can sometimes feel so simple. We think, oh, wow, this is going to be a lot. And then suddenly, just like, with throwing the scarf away, she was like, that the whole time there would be this, like, oh, how are we going to do that next step? And next thing, you know, she's ready for the next step. When she was she just realized it's just, we're just taking one foot in front of the other. We're just moving along here together. But I always emphasize that, and how you were saying earlier, we're moving at the client's pace. We want to, obviously make the most of their time, but we're also, you know, wanting to move at a pace that feels comfortable to them, so when they're ready for the next step, then we'll get there, we'll go to the next step.

Karen Yates  31:33  
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Karen Yates  31:50  
[to interviewees] Can you talk a little bit? Because both of you work, obviously, therapeutically. There's a lot of stories here about, you know, sex workers, although I would say a lot of sex workers do have a therapeutic ability, right? But there are a lot of sex workers in the book who are not, haven't been therapeutically trained, and yet they're also having these what they're relaying are these experiences of depth and power and change for their clients. And can you talk a little bit about that? Remi,

Remi Newman  32:29  
sure, yeah, they're being very thoughtful in their work. Yeah. I was thinking the question you asked earlier about how sometimes the work could start off as one thing and then move into this more perhaps therapeutic, or you were saying even spiritual kind of realm, I feel like it can work both ways. Because, yes, someone could go a client may think I just need to have sex, have release, have I'm going to go see a sex worker. I'm interested in exploring this kink. I'm going to go see a pro dom. And the client themselves may not be fully conscious of Oh, and I also have some stuff. I'm working on some emotional intimacy stuff as well, right? And that's when having those practitioners who also have those skills and can pick up on that, and not that we're actually then doing therapy, but we're just being ourselves. I think a lot of us are pretty amazing people, I would think so many me and many others, this is not work that everyone can do. It takes a certain kind of person to be sharing the space, sharing your body, working with someone in this way, and sharing eroticism. 

Remi Newman  33:35  
And I think it also can work the other way that we're starting from the therapeutic standpoint. We're inviting clients in who are saying, I need this as a therapeutic modality. And then sometimes, of course, they're going to spend any moments of fun and playfulness and somebody had an orgasm, or someone is just feeling relaxed and happy. And so I feel like it's just illustrative of kind of what Mehdi was talking about before, the absolute complexity of our sexuality. It is all of that. It is maybe I want to get off and have an orgasm, and it's also I just want to lay in bed and be held, or I want to be able to ask for what I want and know that my partner will hear me and receive that.

Mehdi  34:19  
Yeah, if I can just jump in on that topic. I think, yeah, therapy, historically in the West, has done a lot for sort of opening up the field, for looking at the internal world of people and through the psychology and emotional life and so on so forth. But again, the cultural pressure or repression of sexuality and pleasure has been a big factor in that too, and we all know that. I mean, we naturally move towards pleasure in life and trauma healing does not have to happen necessarily by sitting down and talking over. And over and over about your story of how you were traumatized, but because that's been shown now that it's not actually, it's counterproductive. Pleasure in itself can be healing if it's done in a way that is intentional, conscious, mindful and and I think that's where what we put, in general, in the category of sex work comes in. I mean, a lot of men say, more men go to sex work, sex workers than go they go to therapists. And why is that? We know? I know from my own experience, having talked to many sex workers, that a lot of their clients don't necessarily go there 100% of the time to have sex. A lot of times it's about relationship, and a lot of times about talking about what is not going well in their life and what they wish and so on so forth. I've, over the past 15 years, I've talked to a lot of sex workers, and I have also trained several sex workers in having a sort of shifting their practice towards a trauma informed sex work, because I believe that sex workers have the capacity and the natural ability, like we were talking about compassion, they have this leaning towards really holding space for people in need, and yes, they offer the pleasure, but within that container of pleasure, people can relax and move towards what is missing in their life, the trauma that they suffer, that they need to repair, and they repair it through relationship. So I think it's there's a lot of value in sex workers being trauma informed, recognizing the trauma and the sort of the actions and behaviors that come in with that come along with the trauma, and really focus on that again, in an intentional, mutually consensual ways with clients. And I think they can be much more effective. And I really believe that much more effective than talk therapy, for example.

Karen Yates  37:14  
Yes, that is a powerful idea. I love that idea. Oh, my goodness, I could keep talking about this for a very long time. I wanted to ask. I wanted to start talking about legality, because it's just this thing that hangs over sex work in all of the whenever it comes up in the show, we're always talking about the various aspects, like SESTA FOSTA, And how that basically killed a way that sex workers could safely connect with clients online and but also just this idea of these gray legal areas of being a somatic sex educator or a sexological body worker or a surrogate partner. What is your feeling about that-- I mean, I wonder what your feeling is about this. [laughing] You too, but--

Remi Newman  38:05  
We might have some strong feelings on it!

Karen Yates  38:10  
Yeah, what? Let's chat. Let's chat about it. Whoever wants to, first Mehdi.

Mehdi  38:16  
You see, I'm not in the States, I'm in Canada. But here's the rub, the rub, the five. Rub the law there was, it called the Prostitution Law in Canada is was modified about, I don't know, maybe about 10 years ago, and they took on this Swedish model, which is quite a perplexing and twisted and confusing, a really useless model as a law, because that it says that the sex workers can advertise, can have they can have your practice, but you cannot gain benefits from it, and any anyone using your services and paying for it would be arrested. That's a Swedish model that our government set up 10 years ago, and that's what we are operating under. The in general, the in whenever the discussion comes up, the confusion between sex trafficking and sex work and child abuse, pedophilia, all of that stuff gets mixed up. And all the Conservatives of all sorts of all colors, yeah, we have to stop the whole thing. So that's our situation here.

Karen Yates  39:31  
Okay, okay, Remi, let's hear

Remi Newman  39:33  
Yeah. Well, yeah. So we definitely do not want to adopt that. What we, a lot of sex workers, identify with the decriminalization model. So there's the Decrim movement, as it's known, and I am in support of that. Yeah, we've seen when in some places and areas it gets legalized, but then it is under strict government control that is not always equal, or often not equal to freedom or even total. Safety for sex workers. So decriminalization that, yeah, the client and the worker, neither are doing anything illegal. We're decriminalizing this many sex workers believe makes the most sense as far as people's safety and people's ability to make a living and the ability for clients to seek out these services and not feel they may already have lots of shame around it, because our society is really good at that, right? Just punishing people for even wanting to be their full sexual selves. Never mind add on that. Now this is something you could get in trouble with the law for. Could add to a level of guilt and shame and fear. And so if we could remove all of that would be wonderful and beautiful. There's so much potential, as we know, for this work to be healing, to just be such a positive force in people's lives, for clients and practitioners, that to have it be in the state it's in, unfortunately now, with the state of our government the United States. This may not be the moment. This may not be the moment to be Yeah, we always need to be pushing for the decriminalization movement. 

Remi Newman  41:08  
But as far as your question about legality and what's the future? And I don't see it right around the corner, but I think one, there's one area where some in some other parts of the world, there's been some movement, and it's specifically around people with physical like different abilities. And I think some people have an easier time getting behind that than they would. They're like, Oh, this person's a quadriplegic. Of course, they need they're having trouble even masturbating on their own. They need someone to assist them, and they certainly can't ask their regular assistant. So this kind of that sort of makes sense to some people's minds, even people who may not be super sex positive. But I think saying someone's had trauma or someone just hasn't been able to figure out how to have the love and sex and intimacy they want, wouldn't it be wonderful to have someone they can work with? People go, I don't know about that. That sounds like prostitution to me, you know. So I think, yeah, like, whatever's a way in, I'm not sure, but I one thing, I just another quick thing about I want to say, is I can see more easily, like we're part of these modalities that are very different, or different that are we're coming at it, maybe from the therapeutic standpoint, and I could see eventually, maybe there being some movement with that. But I think it's very important that we do not leave others behind, right, that if somehow there's some point where surrogate partners, there's a licensing board, and we can actually or sexological body workers, that there's the government is standing with that, or there are more support for that, or it's not being criminalized at all. That we do not want to leave behind everyone else. We want to lift up all the, you know, everyone doing this kind of work. Because just like Mehdi was saying, there are many sex workers out there who are doing incredible therapeutic work as well. And you know what, even if they're not, even if they're helping people get off, that's important too. We need that as well.

Karen Yates  43:07  
Absolutely. Up with pleasure! Up With pleasure. This has been a tremendous conversation. Remi edited a book, Hands On. Hands On, a collection of essays about sex workers, compassion and healing. Highly recommend, and we will link to bookshop.org in the show notes as well. Thank you Remi Newman and Mehdi. 

Remi Newman  43:34  
Thank you, Karen.

Mehdi  43:35  
Thank you so much for arranging this conversation.

Karen Yates  43:40  
You can find Hands On: stories of sexuality, work intimacy and healing, edited by Remy Newman and published by Jessica Kingsley at online booksellers. Well, that's it, Folks. Have a very pleasurable week. 

Karen Yates  44:00  
Thank you for listening. Wild &  sublime is supported in part by our sublime supporter, Full Color Life therapy, therapy for all of you at full color life therapy.com know someone who'd like this episode, send it to them, and we'd love a review or a rating on your podcast app, you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram @wildandsublime. got feedback or an inquiry? Contact us at info@Wildon sublime.com. I'd like to thank our design guru Jean Francois Gervais and editor Christine Ferrera. Our music is by David Ben Porat. This episode is part of the Lincoln lodge Podcast Network. 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai